MINUTES OF AN ORDINARY MEETING OF THE ASSOCIATION OF NORTH-WESTERN CAR CLUBS HELD AT THE
HOLIDAY INN, RUNCORN ON TUESDAY 13th MAY 2003
The Chairman, Bob Milloy, welcomed delegates to the meeting, and
also welcomed our President, Allan Dean-Lewis also wearing his MSA “hat” along with Ben Cussons
of the Motor Sports Association Board of Directors, noting that this was believed to be the
first time a member of the Board had attended any Association meeting.
22 member clubs were represented by 22 delegates as follows:
Bolton-le-Moors CC (Guy Wickham), British Radio Car Association (Jim
Spencer), British Rally Marshals Club (Mike Farnworth), Bury AC (Eve Fisher), Caernarvonshire &
Anglesey MC (Jim Jones), Civil Service Motoring Association (Steve Johnson), Cumbrian Rover
Owners Club (Neil Wilkinson), Dayz of Funder MC (John Francis), High Moor MC (Kerry Hadfield,
Neil Moreton), High Peak & 061 MC (Alan Pemberton), Ilkley & DMC (Clive Baty), Kirkby Lonsdale
MC (Bob Milloy, Katy Mashiter), Knutsford & DMC (Nigel Banks), Liverpool MC (Jim Bebby, Ron
Hunt), Longton & DMC (Peter Riley), Morecambe CC (Katy Mashiter), Motor Sport NW (Ann
McCormack), North Wales CC (Dave Thomas), Potteries & Newcastle MC (Eric Cowcill), Stockport MC
(Bob Milloy), Vauxhall MG (Stuart Heveran), Warrington & DMC (Ann McCormack).
Officials present were: Bob Milloy (Chairman), Eric Cowcill
(Treasurer), Dave Thomas (Championships Secretary), Katy Mashiter (Press Officer), Mike
Ashcroft (Aintree Liaison Officer) & Mike Farnworth (Training Officer).
Apologies for absence were recorded from Kay Skellern (General
Secretary), Martin Pratt (CTRLO), Martin & Helen Fox (Blackrod MC/Wigan & DMC), Colin Gaukroger
(Lancashire & Cheshire Rover OC), John Harden (Liverpool MC), Martin Blackburn (Manx Motor Sport
Marshals Association), Mike Cook (Quinton MC), Ken & Mark Wilkinson (Stockport MC), Richard
Pearl (Wallasey MC & Motor Sport NW).
The minutes of the previous meeting which had been circulated by
post and e-mail were accepted on a proposal by Katy Mashiter (Kirkby Lonsdale MC), seconded by
Steve Johnson (CSMA).
Fire tenders – various thoughts on buckets of foam dispensed by
means of a pressure washer. The Chairman had floated the idea at the Regional Committee as a
point of concern, and that the system would be cheap and easy to operate. Stuart Turner asked
Bob Milloy to write a piece on this suggestion for inclusion in the next issue of “The
Marshall” (due for publication October 2003). Steve Johnson and Mike Farnworth to consult,
along with interested company already sourced (Express Fires) to test and to issue suitable
Club lateness in Year Book – the matter of clubs missing from the Year Book and
Regional Association lists has been acknowledged by the MSA, and revised registration procedure
would be in place for 2004. This will be for an earlier registration date.
MSA - MSA COUNCIL NEWS
Allan Dean-Lewis, wearing his MSA hat, drew attention to the MSA
page in the previous week’s edition of Motorsport News. This will be published on the
first issue of each month from now on, and was instigated by Motorsport News who were
particularly keen to publish details of tribunals. There was an excellent article on John Ryan
who, at 25 years of age, is creating a younger image at the MSA. The MSA deemed the monthly
article to be a positive way of promoting the image of the MSA.
Club bulletin is now being issued to all licence holders. New blood
is to be welcomed on the various MSA committees and invitations are being made to submit
Regional input into Club and other News is required to benefit
clubs. An example is a BARS publicity leaflet which can be found in various Northern Irish
hotels, promoting race and rally school courses in the area.
BARS has been the subject of some grumbles regarding new stage rally
licence applications. It was noted that ARDS (Races) has been in operation for 12 years, ARKS
(Karts) for 7 and both had experienced teething problems in their infancy. BARS are going to
have to sort things out, and there is a MSA representative on the BARS board. The standards of
the schools is being monitored for consistency. There was some debate as to why such strict
measures were required - the concept of the requirements had come about following an incident
in 2001, and the recommendations of the Stage Rally Safety Group had proved vital in obtaining
insurance for rallies. By the system first time drivers were filtered to ensure they have the
necessary capabilities to compete.
Steve Johnson proposed an additional exemption, by means of
qualifying as a Grade 1 Marshal and having competition experience in other disciplines. There
was discussion as to what the BARS course is trying to achieve and how it does it. The best
practices from ARDS and ARKS need to be brought into consideration, along with consistency
which the MSA is striving for.
Steve Johnson’s (CSMA) proposal for an additional exemption, by way
of new regulation E126.96.36.199 was seconded by Ann McCormack (Warrington & DMC) and carried by a
majority vote of 15 to 4, with 3 abstentions. The proposal is to be put forward, where it will
require the support of the Rallies Committee for progress.
The previous week had seen a premature announcement of a new style
of rallying, Enduro Rallying, based on Historic Road Rallies with special tests, but now for
modern cars with an engine size limit. There is a lot of support for this new style and formal
regulations should be in place for 2004.
The Rally Marshals Register had now grown to 5,000 in the nine
months of operation. The database is now available to organisers, subject to official request
on club letter-head and a nominated e-mail address to send the database to, in MS-Excel
format. Nigel Banks (Knutsford) stated that they had received the database but it was
unworkable in the format presented.
Tabards are being obtained, thanks to support from Alexander Forbes,
SLE and the MSF, and these will be distributed to all marshals who were on the register as at
31 December 2002.
The previous week had seen the sudden announcement of insurance for
road sections of rallying being withdrawn by Alexander Forbes. This was not the fault of
Alexander Forbes nor the MSA. The underwriters (Royal Sun Alliance) had expressed reservations
over the Law governing public highways and recent changes gave Police powers to convict
offenders on Common Land and such areas. The insurers legal advisers had reservations about
the liability they incurred. Out of the blue, Alexander Forbes had received a letter from RSA
saying the Rally Drivers Scheme was withdrawn. The MSA had tried to secure cover, and
temporary cover was being obtained on a fortnightly basis, with a meeting due for 15th May.
Marsh (formerly Bowrings) have similar reservations and are not taking any new proposers. It
is noted that premiums have been kept low for a few years, and Alexander Forbes’ handling of
claims had been very efficient. It is getting very difficult to obtain insurance cover. The
MSA will publicise the outcome when a definite way forward is known.
The MSA is committed to focus on clubs and UK motorsport, but cannot
ignore the FIA reference the International calendar of events. There are huge financial
implications of ignoring the major events, as half the income of the MSA is generated from
them, this subsidising the licence fee. The Rally GB and British Grand Prix has a major effect
Nigel Banks (Knutsford) stated that the RAC Rally of old was an
aspirational event for all club rally competitors, but such competitors are now unlikely to be
considered for the event. It was perhaps unique in that the club competitor could compete
directly against the world champion, a situation now lost due to the FIA changes. It was
explained that the Rally GB had to fall in line with the format laid down, else lose its status
and the benefits.
The current World Championship Rallies are made up of 90 cars, 30
for works teams (10 teams of three), 30 for the 1600cc “Junior” category, and 30 at the
discretion of the ASN (which could be regional champions). It was suggested by the members
that there should be some transparency on how the 30 were selected, as there seemed to be some
drivers who were selected for their “promotability” due to success in other areas (British
Saloon car racing driver James Thompson as an example – very limited rally experience although
a really nice guy!), and that competitors using small cars were also totally ignored.
Mike Broad would be reporting on his findings about the state of
British Rallying to the next Rallies Committee.
The May issue of “Wheels” included an excellent editorial by
Stuart Turner regarding the various mutterings against the MSA.
ADL reported that he will be attending an event being organised by
the AEMC (Eastern Association) on 27th May, run by Bernard Baker. This was to be a
“Motorsport Awareness for Landowners and Farmers” event which will promote the idea of
diversifying land use for motor sport recreation. In addition to landowners and farmers the
event would be open to representatives from the Sports Council and local authorities. Details
of the event and, hopefully, a report to be sent to Martin Pratt.
MSA COUNCIL NEWS
The Chairman introduced Ben Cussons, the youngest member of the
board (37). Ben explained that he is from the RAC board, the RAC having the right to nominate
three of its members to the MSA Board. The board now has three International licence holders,
mainly in historic racing. It was noted that Ben had raced in Northern Ireland the previous
weekend, having driven his car to and from his Cheshire home.
Ben stated that all comments are noted by the Council, and
acknowledged that the MSA do not get everything right. Communications are getting better but
are not perfect – yet! It is important that situations are backed up by full facts and
constructive criticism is always welcomed.
The board members do not get paid for their work, they are keen
motor sport enthusiasts who are helping the sport in all ways. The MSA covers a wide range,
from the Grand Prix to Grass Roots, so will always suffer from criticisms from one or the
other. It would be tragic if Britain lost the Grand Prix, but at the same time the MSA wishes
to develop grass roots more, and welcomes ideas. Without the grass roots there will be no
future for motor sport, we need to encourage young people onto committees for their valued
ideas. Youngsters may not wish to push out the older, experienced members of committee but a
wide mixture is essential for growth.
The MSA “Blue Book” is regarded as the best in the world and
many ASN’s copy.
When the Motoring Services split up from the RAC the MSA was on its’
own, then IMS was formed to look after the commercial aspects. IMS is not share-owning, money
is returned into the Motor Sport Fund. The MSA is purely in a governing role – paid from
licence and event permit fees. It is hoped that it will give an ever-improving service.
Several recent retirements see a fairly new team operating, and they will address all issues.
The next Council meeting is in June.
MSA REGIONAL COMMITTEE
John Grant had attended the last Regional Committee meeting and
given very robust answers to questions. The suggestion of licencing all competitors had met
with a lot of feedback and the idea has been withdrawn, having been a “trial balloon” to
promote and establish the feeling, which was well felt.
A working group has been formed from the Regional Committee
delegates, consisting of two from England (Martin Chinnery for the South and Bill Troughear for
the North), one from Scotland (Jonathan Lord), one from Northern Ireland (Nicky Moffitt) and
one from Wales (initially Kath Barber). They had attended an exploratory meeting in Newcastle
and a further meeting was planned for early August, after which a report will be presented to
the Regional Committee, before making thoughts public. The working group is another tier.
Bob Milloy stated that he had requested clubs provide him with
bullet points of issues that were relevant to the MSA and was disappointed that only one club
had responded – Wigton MC raising the issue of loss of venues, and flexibility of the motor
sport calendar. Bob had also raised the issues of fires in cars (see Matters Arising).
MSA RALLIES COMMITTEE
There had been two meetings of the Rallies Committee since the last
It was pleasing to see that K31(a) was still under discussion and a
proposal has now been put forward to amend the penalty from “Exclusion” to “Retired”, so
removing much of the stigma of exclusion for possibly a trivial problem.
It has been identified that the requirement for a “D” plate to be
displayed on the door of any disabled competitor is not always noticed in an incident, and this
was to be replaced by a Velcro armband displaying the “D” along with a pocket into which
details of the disability could be inserted, for easy identification to medical crews and
Enduro Rallying was announced. The Road Rally Study Group have come
up with various ideas resulting from their investigations.
MSA SPEED COMMITTEE
Peter Riley reported on the meeting held 24th February where much
discussion went into the revision of classes.
There have been problems on licencing, with incorrect charges being
made in respect of competitors with National A and Open licences.
No restriction was to be put on “Radical” tyres in “Supersport”
classes. Debate on the modified Production classes is continuing. Most queries seem to be
thrown up by individuals who generally do not like change or try to change against particular
individuals or cars.
MSA TIMING ADVISORY PANEL
Eric Cowcill reported that there are different systems of “Traffic
Lights” for stage rallies, and these need to be standardised. One recent event used three
different types on the same event, causing problems for competitors. It is suggested that a
sample be displayed in scrutineering.
The requirement for a National A Timekeeper to attend events using
the traffic light system will not be relaxed.
Problems had been experience in certain races due to a bad batch of
transponders from Holland. These have been identified but the supplier is not being very
Various invites to events, already covered by being in the ANWCC
Various minutes from other Associations.
Nothing to report other than included elsewhere.
Little to report other than the Association had funded the Training
Day at Myerscough, and we will be reimbursed by the MSA.
There are a few clubs who have still not paid their subscriptions
and will be deleted from our membership list if the final reminder is not actioned.
Dave Thomas stated that the number of registered contenders stood at
346, just one sort of the final total for last year. This does not include the Off-Road Trials
Championship contenders, of which there are 20. The first such event had been run and very
Results were coming in thick and fast and with no problems to
report. The website www.anwcc.org was being continually updated and was now being hit on
average 100 times a day, the total now over 21,000 in the fifteen months of operation.
It was hoped to attract advertisers to the site.
A new championship was being put forward for 2004 – Formula 1000
Rally Challenge being for cars of less than 1000cc. The full details were being worked on,
at the instigation of Tristan Dodd of PEC Tyres and a sponsor is likely. Clive Baty has
assisted in the regulations and a press release will be issued soon. Tristan has already
gained a lot of support for the idea, with about twelve competitors committed to the series.
It is to be investigated if there is any possibility of allowing under-17’s into such a
category. Tristan has also built a 1000cc Nissan Micra which will be used by celebrity
drivers, not eligible for championship points but would be a benchmark for other competitors.
The prize draw for ‘Marshal of the month’ for February, March and
April was picked by ADL - these being Helen Jackson (North Wales CC), Ann McCormack
(Warrington & DMC) and Malcolm Rainforth (Ilkley & DMC).
Offers of awards for the annual marshals’ draw were invited.
Autotest – being held on 21st June at Rufforth. Steve Johnson was
authorised to submit two teams made up of current championship contenders.
RTV Trial – Lancashire & Cheshire Rover OC have offered to organise
the event, planned for 31st August although the original site is no longer available due to
military requirements. Further details to follow.
Production Car Trial – being run on 14th September, organised by the
Stage Rally – in a different style to previous years, the event will
be held at Swinderby on 18th October and will be limited to two-wheel-drive non-turbo cars.
There is a general feeling that the event will not be well-supported as a stand-alone event,
previous events having been based on BTRDA qualifiying events that attract crews from almost
all regional areas.
Road Rally – being organised in the East Midlands region.
Autocross – being run near Chepstow on 9th August.
FORESTRY LIAISON OFFICER
Martin Pratt was not present, nothing to report.
AINTREE LIAISON OFFICER
Mike Ashcroft reported on a meeting held three weeks previous, and
he was hopeful of anniversary dates for 2004, although this is awaiting confirmation.
Liverpool MC’s sprint had been held without problems. The pavilion
showers and heating has been wrecked, with little hope of them being repaired.
There are plans to extend the golf course to 18 holes which will
affect the parking area (more so for motor-cyclists) and the Club Corner area, although funding
has not yet been sourced. There are other potential problems with the golf course layout.
It has been proposed that motorsport fees remain the same for 2004.
Aintree Racecourse Company are now more committed to motorsport and
acknowledge the historical aspect of the venue. However, £500k is being invested in golf, and
it was suggested that perhaps a similar investment into motorsport may reap greater dividends.
A suitable celebration is being planned for the 50 years of Aintree
Next meeting is a track day on 31st May.
OTHER VENUE LIAISON
Weeton will be having a further two events in 2003, organised by
Blackpool (South Shore) MSC and the Clitheroe & District MC – both events are qualifying rounds
of the ANWCC Championships.
Anyone wishing assistance with the Press may contact Katy Mashiter
for advice. Advertising on our website is now being sought.
Mike Farnworth stated that the funding for Myerscough has now been
There has been overwhelming take up for Rick Bate’s First Aid
Mike has visited Coleg Rhyl and found the staff to be very
enthusiastic for clubs to be involved, with fantastic facilities available, including rolling
road equipment. The venue is initially available through North Wales CC then through other
clubs and the Welsh Association. There will be an Introduction to Rally Marshalling on 25th
and 28th June, these dates to be confirmed due to catering requirements. The College will make
facilities available for nest year’s training, which will be jointly promoted with the Welsh
Any club wishing to run a training evening should give Mike at least
three weeks notice, due to overwhelming demand.
RALLY LIAISON OFFICER
No report in Martin Pratt’s absence.
Jack Romain, RLO for North Wales, is holding a meeting of clubs who
run events on map 116, on 20th May to discuss potential problems of overuse of the area.
ANY OTHER BUSINESS
Jim Spencer (BRCA) has drawn up a Child Protection Policy which was
suggested as being suitable for publication on www.anwcc.org. ADL agreed to liaise with Pippa
Murphy of the Child Protection Agency in Northern Ireland, who has been involved with ANICC, to
check out the policy before publication.
Steve Johnson reported that the CSMA Marshalling Group includes and
encourages many under 18-year-olds in its activities and was surprised that very few clubs ask
for parental permission when signing-on the marshals, staff not being aware of this
requirement. Allan Dean-Lewis stated that is a need to encourage youngsters in this way, but
there is an extra level of bureaucracy that has to be dealt with.
John Francis (DoFMC) reported that the Charity Track Day on 15th
August is in need of 169MHz radios. Mike Farnworth immediately stated that this is not a
problem! There are some places left for the track day. John had recently completed the London
Marathon carrying a replica Citroën 2CV and had attracted 12 seconds of BBC TV coverage on the
highlights programme. The car sported ANWCC Championship and “Thanks for Marshalling”
stickers. His time was over eight hours but raised a lot of money. A further raffle is being
held with a first prize being £200 worth or racing lessons.
Dave Thomas reported that there was a wish for promoting motorsport
to ethnic groups, and a conversation with Naveed Iqbal, former member of Stockport MC, showed
that Nav is trying to encourage his group with little success to date. A similar initiative in
the South of England is being promoted by three Afro-Caribbeans.
The Forest Enterprise is appointing a Motorsport Manager to help the
sport, there being issues of road maintenance due to felling and trees not being replaced,
trying to make better use of resources and leisure activities.
DATE AND PLACE OF NEXT MEETING
The meeting closed at 2250 hours, members were thanked for attending
with special thanks to Allan Dean-Lewis and Ben Cussons. The next meeting will be held on
Tuesday 12th August 2003 at the Holiday Inn, Runcorn, commencing at 2000 hours.
... for the Ordinary Meeting of the Association of North-Western
Car Clubs, which will be held at Holiday Inn Runcorn, on Tuesday 12th August 2003, commencing at
Apologies for absence
Minutes of the last Ordinary Meeting
Any other business
Forestry / Facilities Liaison Officer
Aintree Liaison Officer
Other Venue Liaison
Date and place of next meeting
p.p. Kay Skellern
General Secretary - Association of North-Western Car Clubs
17 Johnson Close, Henshall Hall, Congleton, Cheshire, CW12 3TQ