MINUTES OF AN ORDINARY MEETING OF THE
ASSOCIATION OF NORTH-WESTERN CAR CLUBS
HELD AT THE HOLIDAY INN, RUNCORN
ON TUESDAY 12th NOVEMBER 2002
The Chairman, Bob Milloy, welcomed delegates to the meeting,
noted Dave Thomas’ absence due to a mal-functioning appendix and then asked for a few moments
silence to remember Gareth Hall who had died in a road accident on October.
24 delegates represented 18 member clubs as follows:
Blackrod MC (Helen & Martin Fox, Steve Moore); Bolton-le-Moors CC (Guy
Wickham); British Radio Car Association (Jim Spencer); Bury AC (Eve Fisher); Chester MC (Martin
Pratt); CSMA (Steve Johnson); Dayz of Funder MC (John Francis); Ecurie Royal Oak MC (Nigel
Bayley, Kay & Kevin Skellern); Ilkley & DMC (Clive Baty); Kirkby Lonsdale MC (Katy Mashiter, Bob
Milloy); Knowldale CC (Derek & Jan Lord); Lancashire & Cheshire CC (David Bailey, Martin Nield);
Lancashire & Cheshire Rover OC (Colin Gaukroger); Liverpool MC (John Harden, Ron Hunt); Longton
& DMC (Peter Riley); Motor Sport North-West (Martin Nield); 2300 Club (Katy Mashiter); Wigan &
DMC (Helen & Martin Fox).
Officials present were:
Bob Milloy (Chairman), Kay
Skellern (General Secretary), Martin Pratt
(FLO/CTRLO), Mike Ashcroft (Aintree Liaison Officer),
Katy Mashiter (Press Officer)
Apologies for absence were recorded from
Dave Thomas (Championships Secretary & North Wales CC), Eric Cowcill (Treasurer), Ian Price (Blackpool South Shore
MSC), Andrew Hughes (High Peak & 061 MC), Sue Sanders-Peppit (Potteries & Newcastle MC), Mike
Cook (Quinton MC) and Mike Yates (Slaithwaite MC).
Minutes of the previous meeting which had been circulated by
post and e-mail were accepted on a proposal by John Francis (Dayz of Funder MC), seconded by
Katy Mashiter (KLMC).
In the absence of information from John Symes of the MSA on
legislation regarding under 18-year-olds, the Chairman drew attention to extensive
documentation issued with Judicial Committee notes from the Royal Yachting Association via Rick
The proposals for issue of the MSA Marshals Register, as indicated by ADL at the last
meeting, have not produced anything readable by known electronic means. The Training Seminar
Video is however quite intelligible and can be obtained on loan via Mike Farnworth or Dave
Thomas. All clubs have been issued with the three-part compilation video, copy also available
on loan via Dave Thomas.
The FIA’s stance on amateurs competing Internationally remains in place. Some events
will have paid 150 Euros to register on the FIA list of ‘NEAFP’s. Refer to the MSA website for
any further news.
The Chairman had spoken to Eric Cowcill regarding the requirement for “National A”
Timekeepers to be in charge of electronic equipment. It is apparently not the intention to
prohibit lower status of Timekeepers from using such equipment apart from automatic ‘traffic
light systems’. (See MSA Year Book 2003, Page 37 which has been modified since 2002
although is not indicated as a modified regulation!).
John Francis reported enthusiastically on the Charity Day at Three Sisters that helped
raise this years total to £4861, a great increase from the £1800 in 2001. The 2003 event is
scheduled for 15th August.
Neither Alan Bibby nor Neil Bye were successful following their nomination for the MSA
The "14/28 day rule" remains unchanged following a large number of representations from
MSA - MSA COUNCIL NEWS
Notes from the meeting held at Motor Sports House on 19th September 2002. These included a considerable number of Approved and Ratified regulation changes, details of which are also available on the MSA website.
MSA REGIONAL COMMITTEE
Bob Milloy reported on the meeting held at Motor Sports House on 4th
Details of Inter-Association events were reviewed - AWMMC won the
Stage Rally which ran in conjunction with the Quinton Stages, the proposed 2003 event clashes
with the Ulster Rally. ANWCC teams failed to finish intact. The RTV Trial had been cancelled
due to lack of support, with only three teams, two of which were from L&C ROC on our behalf! A
further attempt will be made in 2003, failing that a ‘Comp Safari’ would be tried. The PCT had
run but no details were given (AWMMC won it), the 2003 event is scheduled for September
to be run by Owen MC. The Navigational Rally is to be run on 16th November based in Jedburgh,
we have regulations but no team members. (ANCC won!). The Autotest, run by KDMC on
behalf of WAMC on 28th September was won by ANCC who will run the 2003 event in May or June.
ANWCC team finished third.
The WAMC raised a question about risk assessments that prompted a
brief presentation by John Symes. Procedures for reporting accidents and proposals for MSA
‘check list/tick box’ risk assessments for various disciplines were noted. Issue of the first
lists for rallies was expected before this year ends.
The Chief Executive, Colin Hilton, presented a report including
comments attributed to Tony Blair that motorsport is defined by the Government as a business
and not a sport! A resume of the Strategic Review followed and concluded with Colin Hilton
asking the Committee to provide ‘half a dozen’ bullet point items with impact or affect on the
future of club level motorsport for discussion at the next meeting. Ideas for inclusion on the
list to the Chairman please.
MSA RALLIES COMMITTEE
The minutes of the meeting held at Motor Sports House on 15th
September 2002 were to hand. The Chairman drew attention to the following items:
A further option to exclusion under K31(a) was identified as the
running of a Special Stage Practice Event (K36.11). This would not require an additional permit
fee but should be noted on the permit application. Details of the options are to be included in
the next MSA Official Training Seminars.
The issue of re-fuelling had persuaded the Committee to propose any
new regulations and instead, a list of ‘best practices’ for re-fuelling and service areas
should be made available to Clubs and for discussion.
A Road Rally Study Group was suggested with a remit to look into the
use of high performance 4wd cars on night events.
The use of SOS/OK boards was again discussed with the proposal to
allow notional times to be awarded for any competitors stopping on a stage to report an
incident by revising K25.5 rather than imposing a penalty on those who don’t. (Regulation
has been modified in the 2003 MSA Year Book)
Tony Newsum confirmed that use of the current ‘officials signing on
sheets’ for on marshals, who may not have had the opportunity to read the General Regulations,
would not affect a possible insurance claim.
MSA SPEED COMMITTEE
Peter Riley noted that there had been no further meeting since June
and a whole new list of classes will take effect in 2004.
MSA AUTOTEST COMMITTEE
MSA TRIALS COMMITTEE
New leaflet received from the AA publicising their special rates
for club members (15% reduction). Contact Dave Thomas for a form.
Details of glassware suitable for awards (as used by several member
clubs) from Coppice Crystal, 261 Coppice Road, Poynton, Stockport, SK12 1SP. Telephone 01625
874421 or visit www.coppicecrystal.com
MSA Championship Registration forms for 2003 received for completion
Many e-mails and letters regarding events for 2003. See enclosures
Kay Skellern advised that the Awards Presentation would take place
on Saturday 8th February 2003, here at the Holiday Inn, Runcorn. The General Secretary would
welcome any ideas or proposals for alterations to the existing format of a buffet supper
followed by the presentation interspersed with bingo/raffle and concluding with a disco.
The Treasurer was not present. A cheque for £250 had been received
from the MSA in respect of our including club event details within the 2002 Yearbook. Our
licence under the Data Protection Act has been renewed for a further 3 years.
The following clubs are noted as having still not renewed their
subscriptions for 2003, and will be receiving a further invoice soon – Aberystwyth & DMC,
Austin-Healey Club, Hagley & DLCC, Imp Club, Keighley & DMC, Lancashire AC, Lightning MSC,
Severn Valley MC, Three Shires MC, Triumph Sporting OC, Warrington & DMC, Westfield Sports CC.
It is also noted that both Blackrod MC and Longton & DMC have paid by Standing Order, but
underpaid by £10.
Clubs who have registered events for inclusion within the
Championships 2003 will also be sent invoices in the near future.
Dave Thomas was unable to attend the meeting due to being admitted
to hospital the previous day for a rapid removal of his appendix, so these notes have been
added as an appendix (not the one removed as that was rather nasty!) with some up-to-date
The championship were nearing an end, with year another successful
year. 105 championship events will have been run, with a total of 347 championship contenders.
Of these 161 competed on Stage Rallies (46.4%), 101 on Road Rallies (29.1%), 64 on Forest
Rallies (18.4%), 42 on Autotests (12.1%), 41 on Sprints (11.8%), 20 on Trials (5.8%), 18 on
Historic Rallies (5.2%) and 16 on Hillclimbs (4.6%). 40.9% of the competitors qualified as
Novices in a particular discipline, whilst there were a total of 30 Juniors (8.6%) and 26
Ladies (7.5%). Surprisingly 27 (7.8%) did not tackle any ANWCC Championship event, whilst one
competitor competed on no less than 21 events (all rallies) so got his money’s worth!
Thanks expressed to all clubs who organised events and/or supplied
competitors. Generally all the events had been well run with very little problems, although a
potentially serious query has been raised regarding the results of a recent Road Rally (this
has since resolved).
The Championships have received a lot of publicity on the website as
well as on the various forums on the net, and several constructive comments have been received
resulting in the following proposed changes for 2003. It is noted that the websites rallyforum.com and
britishrally.co.uk have a high North-Western content, which is very pleasing!
All Championships … extend the overall awards to include the top
three competitors overall, currently only first, to reward the hard tryers.
Stage Rallies … no planned changes. A suggestion to cut the number
down to, say, 12 rounds has been discussed previously and the general feeling seems to be to
allow all the events in, but monitor so that any event that fails to meet the standards can be
subject to review the following year. This will apply particularly to an event which is
cancelled due to no effort being made to run, and will be implemented for 2004.
Forest Rallies … rename the “Formula 2” category as “Front-wheel-
drive” as our definition is not the same as the accepted Formula 2 on higher events (i.e.
homologated cars). Add a “Rear-wheel-drive” category with scoring on the same basis.
Road Rallies … initially suggested to change the Production Car
category so that it would only include those cars that cannot enter “normally” (e.g. turbos and
trim-cams). Due to demand from many competitors, decided to leave the definition as it is, but
dilute the scoring system, using the same method as for the English and Welsh competitor
categories. It is noted that some events may not permit certain cars (e.g. Turbos and 4WD) and
on these events no-one will be awarded Production Car category points. (The only event
known, at the moment, to be restricting entries is the Moonbeam Rally).
Historic Rallies … separate into Road and Stage Championships, as
there are now sufficient events. The two types do not attract the same competitors. It will
also give us better opportunity to promote the championships. Stage classes to be based on age
and engine capacity of cars with (A) up to 1959, (B) 1960-67 and (C) 1968-74 sub-divided into
(a) up to 1300cc, (b) 1301-1600cc and (c) over 1600cc. Road Rally classes would remain as is.
Autotests & Trials … no change.
Sprints and Hillclimbs … New class structures to cater for
increasing number of road cars and the promise of many more for 2003. Classes to be (A) Road-
going Saloons, (B) Road-going Sports, (C) Saloons other than A, (D) Sports other than B, (E)
Single-seaters. These classes to be sub-divided into (a) up to 1000cc, (b) 1001-100cc, (c) 1401-
1700cc, (d) 1701-2000cc and (e) over 2000cc. Saloon cars are defined as having been originally
fitted with a roof and rear seats. Class A and B cars must be road registered, taxed, insured
and MoT’d (where appropriate) for use on the public highway. It may be necessary for
competitors to advise me of car details when they register, but that problem can be overcome
easily by e-mail or a phone call.
I am intending introducing a Marshals Championship. Full details will be included in the mailshot accompanying these minutes, but
basically we will be seeking support from various sources with regards to the provision of awards. Marshals will be supplied
with claim cards and it is hoped that organisers of championship events will hand these out to
marshals. All offers of help will be appreciated, whether by way of donation of prizes,
financial or publicity.
The website www.anwcc.org has been a resounding success! Launched at
the end of February the total number of hits is now around 8,000 (it went over the 10,000
mark on 11th December with a free championship registration being offered to Neil Bye of Pendle
DMC who claimed the milestone login!) The site has cost some money to run and will be
noticed in the end of year accounts (don’t panic, we’ve not made a loss!) but it is anticipated
that next year will see the costs more than offset as minutes and NeWs will be
distributed via the web to all those who have the facility, thereby reducing printing and
postage costs considerably.
Plans for the site for 2003 are to move all the 2002 results to an
Archive page, and to have a page of Club News where items from club newsletters, or press
releases, will be published. Clubs are requested to send info to
Dave Thomas (MS-Word format preferred) but try and restrict to a manageable length! This
page will be updated on a monthly basis, as a magazine. A Photo Gallery page will also be added,
whilst the Links page includes other sites of interest. It is also planned to have a short
report for each event, to be published with the results.
One important lesson learnt is that the success of the site is due
to the fact that it is constantly being updated, with changes being made daily some times.
Clubs who have their own sites should take note of this, as it has been found that many club
sites are way out of date, and many will have pre-event publicity for events but then nothing
afterwards, not even results – not acceptable!
FORESTRY LIAISON OFFICER
Martin Pratt reported that he had been contacted by the local NFU
regarding diversification of use for farmland and had prepared an outline of motor sport
related activities. It was noted that venue values may have to be re-evaluated and that
continued use of traditional venues could no longer be relied on. Options for clubs to combine
to purchase their own venues or consider other uses were noted.
AINTREE LIAISON OFFICER
Mike Ashcroft reported on a meeting held on 7th November, with
Charles Barnett of Aintree Racecourse, Mike Fitzjohn from Sport England and John Haden of
Liverpool MC. Dates were confirmed for 2003, as was good news that hire fees are not to be
increased. Charles Barnett still wishes to extend the golf course and only sees a further five
years use by motorsport. The condition of the Clubhouse still continues to be an issue although
some improvements were noted.
2003 car dates are 26th April, 31st May, 28th June, 6th September
and 4th October. All are allocated to Liverpool MC for three sprints and two track days.
2003 motorcycle dates are 7th May, 17th May, 14th June, 12th July,
16th August and 20th September.
OTHER VENUE LIAISON
Nothing to report.
Anyone wishing assistance with the Press may contact Katy Mashiter
There will be two Rally Training Days at Myerscough College, Preston
25th & 26th January 2003. Details and volunteering forms available.
Race Training Days at Oulton Park are on 8th & 9th February 2003.
Fire Training is planned also at Oulton Park on 15th February 2003.
Speed Training Day at Loton Park on 23th March 2003. Details from
David Parr, Secretary of Hagley & DLCC.
Details of any training can be obtained from Mike Farnworth.
RALLY LIAISON OFFICER
Martin Pratt stated that he was not going to change the rules but he
will enforce them. This stance results from the actions of a nameless club who had not
contacted the RLO when their permit application stated they had, and then rang to ask for the
OK the day before an event. Clubs should contact the RLO advance of their permit applications
and not tell lies on the form. Those clubs that operate the Authorisation system correctly will
not be affected; however Mr Pratt will not compromised!
ANY OTHER BUSINESS
It is understood that the MSA’s insurance costs will rise by about
60% in 2003 with the ‘cash back fund’ being used to restrict the 2003 rates to about a 10%
increase. As a result there will be no ‘cash back’ payment to Clubs this year.
Martin Fox asked that the Association convey to the MSA Wigan &
DMC’s view on how ineffective ‘AFFF’ is as a fire extinguishant. The Chairman noted the comment
and added that the MSA were investigating alternatives. Steve Johnson then explained some of
the technicalities of fire extinguishers.
This subject matter led to Steve Moore being invited by the Chairman to outline his
written proposal ‘Possibility of Introducing a Fire Tender on ANWCC rounds’, which is
appended (see below) in full to these Minutes. The Chairman suggested that rather than
considering a way of putting out fires the reason for so many recent incidents should be
investigated. The general view was that most recent fires are petrol related.
A useful exchange of alternative ideas that Clubs could consider in lieu of an ANWCC
fire tender included use of ‘domestic type’ pressure washers with a suitable reservoir for 2%
AFFF and water solution and a generator mounted on a trailer, in a van or recovery unit, to be
provided by individual clubs for deployment at any venue without the complications of a
regionally based/managed vehicle and crew. Steve Johnson offered technical advice to help
advance this initiative. Any further thoughts would be welcome.
Steve Johnson noted his intention to provide a licenced rescue unit to cover a
forthcoming road rally in the event of the fire service being on strike.
Nominations are requested for the presentation of the ADL Scroll.
This is in recognition of the extra efforts made by nominees in the running of their club. Full
details are included with the mailshot.
DATE AND PLACE OF NEXT MEETING
The meeting closed at 2200 hours, members were thanked for
The next meeting will be held on Tuesday 11th February 2003 at the
Holiday Inn, Runcorn, immediately following the AGM at 2000 hours.
... for the Ordinary Meeting of the Association of North-Western
Car Clubs, which will be held at Holiday Inn Runcorn, on Tuesday 11th February 2003, commencing
immediately after the AGM to be held at 2000 hours.
Apologies for absence
Minutes of the last Ordinary Meeting
Any other business
Forestry / Facilities Liaison Officer
Aintree Liaison Officer
Other Venue Liaison
Date and place of next meeting
p.p. Kay Skellern
General Secretary - Association of North-Western Car Clubs
17 Johnson Close, Henshall Hall, Congleton, Cheshire, CW12 3TQ
POSSIBILITY OF INTRODUCING A FIRE TENDER ON ANWCC ROUNDS
“I believe that the current level of protection against fire in rally cars is totally
inadequate. Everyone agrees that AFFF is a poor substitute for BCF and this year has seen many
rally cars completely destroyed by fire.
It occurred to me recently that while events are compelled to provide a Doctor car and
Recovery vehicles, there is no requirement for a Fire Tender or Rapid Response Unit. The only
requitrement is for a few hand-held applicances dotted around the venue which do not have the
capacity to save a car once it is ablaze.
Does the ANWCC think it would be feasible to fund the introduction of a dedicated Fire
Tender based on a pick-up truck or Land-Rover similar to those used at Race Circuits. The basic
specification could be a pumped hose reel and 200 litre tank of suitable foam extinguishant
plus, say, 10 hand-helds and a selection of basic tools and equipment.
The tender could be manned by volunteers, possibly with some basic fire-fighting
training and running costs could be covered by a voluntary or compulsory fee on the ANWCC
registration form, hopefully along with some donations from wealthy competitors who would
appreciate the extra protection such a unit might offer.
It costs about £1,500 to insure a Group A Evo or Subaru for one single-venue event so
the relative cost of supporting a Fire Tender is very small.”
Steve Moore, Blackrod MC, 12th November 2002