MINUTES OF AN ORDINARY MEETING OF THE
ASSOCIATION OF NORTH-WESTERN CAR CLUBS
HELD AT THE HOLIDAY INN, RUNCORN
ON TUESDAY 13th AUGUST 2002
The Chairman, Bob Milloy, welcomed delegates
to the meeting, and also welcomed Allan-Lewis MBE wearing two hats, that of
the MSA and that of President of the Association.
21 member clubs were represented by 27 delegates
Bolton-le-Moors CC (Guy Wickham); British Motorsport
Marshals Club (Phil Hosker); Caernarfonshire & Anglesey MC (Jim Jones);
Chester MC (Martin Pratt); Dayz of Funder MC (John Francis); Ecurie Royal
Oak MC (Kay Skellern, Kevin Skellern, Martin Rowe); High Moor MC (Neil
Moreton, Paul Nellist); Ilkley & DMC (Clive Baty); Kirkby Lonsdale MC (Katy
Mashiter, Bob Milloy); Knutsford & DMC (Phil Dickens); Lancashire & Cheshire
CC (David Bailey, Martin Nield); Lancashire & Cheshire Rover OC (Tim Curran,
Colin Gaukroger); Liverpool MC (Jim Bebby, John Harden, Ron Hunt); Longton &
DMC (Peter Riley); Motor Sport NW (Richard Pearl); North Wales CC (Dave
Thomas); Potteries & Newcastle MC (Sue Sanders-Peppitt); Stockport MC (Ian
Baxter); Telford AC (Tim Hobbs); 2300 Club (Katy Mashiter); Wallasey MC
Officials present were:
Allan Dean-Lewis (President), Bob Milloy
(Chairman), Kay Skellern (General
Secretary), Dave Thomas (Championships
Secretary), Martin Pratt (FLO/CTRLO),
Mike Ashcroft (Aintree Liaison
Officer), Katy Mashiter (Press Officer)
Apologies for absence were recorded from
Eric Cowcill (Treasurer),
Mike Farnworth (Training Officer),
Martin Fox (Blackrod MC and Wigan & DMC), Tom Dooley (BRSCC), Ian Price
(Blackpool South Shore MSC), Eve Fisher (Bury AC), Steve Johnson (CSMA),
Nigel Bayley (ERO), Derek & Jan Lord (Knowldale CC), Martin Blackburn (Manx
Motor Sport Marshals Assoc), Mike Cook (Quinton MC), Mike Yates (Slaithwaite
MC), Dave Read (Warrington), Richard Duddell (Westfield Sports CC)
Minutes of the previous meeting had been
circulated and were accepted on a proposal by Sue Sanders-Peppitt (P&N),
seconded by Peter Riley (Longton). + VAT and not £2,500 + VAT, bookings are
not to be made through Mike Ashcroft as advised.
Letter received from John Symes of the MSA,
guest at the last meeting, stating that the issue of legislation regarding
under 18-year-olds officiating was to be checked.
MSA - ALLAN DEAN-LEWIS
Allan Dean-Lewis outlined recent happenings
within the MSA, stating that refurbishment work expected to last 13 weeks
had just begun at Motor Sports House, and asked for everyone to be patient
as this would obviously disrupt the flow of work.
The Rally Marshals seminars had proved highly
successful, and he was pleased to record that the local seminar had seen the
highest attendance with a total of 320 marshals. Thanks were expressed to
Knutsford & DMC and Chester MC for all their efforts in securing a new venue
at British Aerospace when it was becoming apparent that the original venue
would not be able to cater for the numbers.
At the beginning of the task it was predicted
that a total of 1,000 would have been a good result. With the Jersey
seminar still to be held, the total attendees to date was 2,437 of which
1,110 had been processed and issued with Registration documents. The total
number of registered marshals with the MSA is 3598, the balance being race
Feedback had all been positive, whilst queries
on "grandfather rights" were overcome as the system had to be auditable to
show that training and experience was up-to-date. One reason for the system
was to be able to supply databases to event organisers, but the Data
Protection Act had ruled this out. The wording of the registration
application has now been changed slightly for the applicant to consent to
information being distributed. The on-line form available on www.msauk.org
had been updated, and the next edition of "The Marshall" would also
Discussion was continuing as to the best method
of providing lists to clubs. E-mail was considered the most effective, and
lists may be sorted by post code. Requests for such lists would only be
dealt with if they are submitted on club headed paper.
The minimum age limit of 16 may have seemed
unfair (especially as competitors are permitted below that age), and was
being referred to the insurers. Commonality with race marshal rules was
The seminar held in Droitwich had been filmed and
the final draft had been reviewed last week. It is planned to issue the
video, together with posters and leaflets, to all affiliated clubs in early
September. The pack would be sent to the nominated delegated of the club,
usually the Secretary. Clubs could then show the video to members at club
Bob Milloy asked if the script would be such that
all clubs would be stating the same thing, and how would this be policed.
ADL replied that the video is a complete presentation, without additional
script. A certificate of exemption would be in place for club viewing.
Feedback would be welcomed.
For 2002 the MSA have issued a total of 30,640
competition licences, the annual figure remaining steady. Of these a total
of 2,819 (9.2%) are for competitors under the age of 17 whilst for over 50's
the figure is, surprisingly, lower at 2,077 (6.8%). There were a total of
2,754 licenced officials, an increase of about 10% since 2000 whilst there
were a total of 747 affiliated member clubs.
For comparison, the ANWCC figures for 2002 give a
total of 347 competitors, of these 315 have supplied their dates of birth
and this reveals None under 17 (18 under 21, 37 under 25) and 40 (12.7%)
over 50 (ages taken as at 1st January 2002). We have 85 member clubs, 11.4%
of the total MSA affiliated clubs. Note that our figures do not include
any karting competitors, which accounts for most of the difference in Under
17 year olds.
The British Grand Prix came and went
successfully, the circuit owners having put a lot of time, money and effort
into ensuring that the traffic problems experienced in previous years would
The "14/28 day rule" which would affect much of
the sport had seen positive responses from clubs in contacting their Members
of Parliament. Peter Riley reported that the Horse Society were also being
positive in objecting to the proposals whilst it was also stated that the
NHS (National Health Service) had interests in the changes due to
presentations that they organise. The time scale for the planned changes
was unknown but likely to be debated further.
Bill Troughear, Chairman of the Regional
Committee, was now also Chairman of LARA.
ADL then gave details of his new role as Head of
External Affairs, responsible for media, publicity and raising the profile
of the MSA. It was generally thought that the MSA has lost out since
dropping the "RAC".
John Grant, currently Chairman of the MSC, is now
Chairman-elect and will take over from 31 December 2002. Previously a Ford
man involved in the acquisition of Jaguar.
A strategic review of the MSA had taken place and
a presentation would be made to the Regional Committee at the next meeting
The Club Development Fund, as well as other
funding initiatives such as the MSC Training Trust, was ongoing but
suffering from poor interest rates. The funds may need review, and it is
important not to lose ground to ensure that they still deliver objectives.
New badges for Rescue crews were now available at
£3 each. The design had been submitted by George Bailey of Stoke Rescue.
The marshals badge competition, launched at the Traning evenings, had
resulted in many excellent entries being submitted but, unfortunately, none
were deemed practical. The challenge is still open.
346 packs for Rally Licences had been sold to
date, with about a 60% takeup, this is in line with similar courses run by
ARDS (Racing) and ARKS (Karting). There are no comparative figures
available, showing the number of new applications from previous years. SSP
informed the delegates that just over 100 potential competitors had passed
the BARS course, with only two failures. The exam/test papers had been
reviewed and were found to be extremely well-produced.
Clive Baty highlighted a recent problem on the
Quinton Stages, where a competitor (navigator) had been refused a start due
to having a Non-Race National B licence. Whilst the Blue Book states that
competitors on Stage Rallies have to be in possession of a Stage Rally
licence, a written instruction from the MSA to organisers, corrects this to
say that navigators can compete with a Non-Race National B licence. Dave
Thomas stated that he had highlighted this problem at the beginning of the
year, and had also spoken to the competitor concerned (not an ANWCC
contender) earlier that day - the competitor is a BTRDA championship
contender and was denied a potential second class placing by being unable to
compete. It was regrettable that the organisers were refusing to accept
they were incorrect, whilst the MSA and BTRDA were also taking no further
action in the matter.
Guy Wickham enquired as to the FIA licencing
changes for foreign National events. ADL stated that it was not clear of
the agreements between European, British and Irish bodies. He would enquire
if the new regulations nullify previous agreements.
Martin Blackburn had enquired by e-mail on the
requirements for a National A timekeeper when an event uses electronic
equipment (Regulation C7.2.8) and how were club officials to be brought up
to date with new technology. Unfortunately Eric Cowcill, MSA International
Timekeeper, was not present but ADL would refer the question to the MSA
Timekeeping Committee. It was felt that occasional dispensations were
possible, such as in Karting where the timekeeper can be issued with a
certificate of competence to use the equipment.
MSA COUNCIL NEWS
Eric Cowcill was not present, and no
information was available, other than reported elsewhere in these minutes.
MSA REGIONAL COMMITTEE
Bob Milloy reported on the meeting held at
Motor Sports House on 29th May.
Development Rights (14/28 Day rule) and Rally
Marshals Training were discussed.
Colin Hilton of the MSA presented a full and
open report, feeling that the profile of the MSA had dropped. Commercial
Karting is to be brought into mainstream motorsport - licence upgrades now
being accepted with an inclusion of indoor events.
The Industry Advisory Panel had been set up
with a lot of good points and liaison between clubs, motor sport and the
All Regional representatives now received
copies of all paperwork relating to minutes of meetings. This has resulted
from the comment that some minutes are worthless without the background
The Safety Committee had nothing to report to
Regional, which was considered unusual!
Harmonization of competition licences was
required, with similar upgrade mechanisms between rallies, racing, speed and
karting - generally to come into line with rallying upgrading system.
Steve Smith, Inter-Association event
co-ordinator was enthusiastic and determined to organise an
Inter-Association Championship but this had not found much support, events
were to stand alone. The calendar of Inter-Association events for the next
twelve months had been published. Dave Thomas questioned the reasoning
behind the IA Stage Rally which is to be a single-venue event at Swinderby
in Lincolnshire in 2003, the same weekend as another event.
ANECCC stated that clubs and competitors were
not being looked after properly by the MSA with regards to dealing with
authorizations. Consultants have been appointed to look at the MSA, but it
was questioned as to why the consultants did not seem to be talking to clubs
The MSA are discussing insurance cover for
2003. There are obviously a number of difficulties and increased premiums
will result. The "cashback" buffer is being eroded.
MSA RALLIES COMMITTEE
Sue Sanders-Peppitt reported on the meeting
held at Motor Sports House on 15th May.
Re-fuelling is a major issue on rallies, and a
proposal is being made to the next meeting to be held on 15th August. The
proposals, if passed, would be recommended for 2003, mandatory from 1st
BARS and Safety Plans were discussed. A sample
anti-spillage kit was presented, more discussion at the August meeting.
The Radio Licencing and Training Seminars had
seen limited attendance but a good programme. Licencing was on the list of
things to be reviewed, with operators being licenced individually and not as
Fire extinguishers were discussed - it being
stated that extinguishers are to provide time for the crew to escape and not
to save the car. The FIA are currently assessing different extinguishants.
Road Rallies were debated. Light pods are not
permitted (K 22.4.1 and K 22.10) although there seems to be some dispute.
It was questioned why light pods are not permitted and stated that some
areas do not permit auxiliary lights of any type. It was felt that pods
give the perception of stage rally cars. The problem appears to be
Clarification of regulations can be effected
immediately, changes to regulations require the necessary process, which can
take up to 18 months.
SOS/OK board regulations are being amended (MSA
regulation K25.5). Further debate will be made in August but regulations
are required to ensure that any crew seeing another crew in difficulties
must take appropriate action, such as report to the next radio post.
Problems are apparent in the form of penalties to be imposed and the
policing of any new regulations. Safety of the stricken crew is top
priority and this must not be lost under regulation. Tim Hobbs stated that
there is a problem in stating what succeeding crews at an incident must do,
the problem of penalties is subjective. Martin Pratt stated that
information is a priority, enabling the safety crews to come into play at
the earliest opportunity. Dave Thomas suggested that instead of penalising
crews who did not report incidents why not credit crews who lost time
through acting responsibly, a crew reporting to a radio post could be easily
logged by that post and a time credit be given to counteract the time lost.
K31(a) had been debated at length and a
sub-committee formed comprising SSP along with Howard Wilcock and Mike
Yates. Feedback from competitors and organisers had been tremendous with
some really good, positive constructive views received.
The sub-committee is going to recommend that
Clerks-of-the-Course have three options, firstly to apply the rule as
written which is "miss a control - exclusion", secondly rejoin for a "Trophy
Rally", or third apply as written but with the option for crews to continue
in the event but not be classified as a finisher (i.e. K31(a) applied at end
of event). The event regulations must clearly state the intention and crews
rejoining must have their cars re-scrutineered. Results should clearly show
K31(a) as the reason for a non-finish if applicable. Provided that the
intentions are clear in the regulations the event will be covered by
insurance. If approved the full wording will be issued to clubs as soon as
possible, and will be a clarification of existing regulations so effective
immediately. The Chairman thanked SSP for all her efforts in dealing with
MSA SPEED COMMITTEE
Peter Riley had attended the last meeting on
25th June 2002. One "Solo" event had been run very successfully, and the
format had been passed to the Autotest Committee.
Regulation L.10 is to be revised - road going
classes to have 4-point safety harness, hopefully this will be a
Upgrading of licences is going through the
system, 4 signatures will be required to upgrade from Non-Race National B to
National A (one signature can be for attending Race School), then a further
4 signatures to upgrade from National A to National A Open. There was some
disquiet as this can permit a competitor to only compete on one circuit then
enter a F1 car on an event! Young age licencing was being investigated,
insurance aspects being the concern.
Proposal for a class for electric vehicles.
Write to your MP regarding the 14/28 ruling.
MSA AUTOTEST COMMITTEE
There had been a meeting the previous week.
Saloon car specifications were discussed, with the cutting of body panels to
create extra windows being deemed to render a car as a "Special". The
"Wrong Test" regulation was to be clarified.
MSA TRIALS COMMITTEE
Reported that there was concern over MoT
certificates, but no further information.
Go-200-NT Rally Timer, details can be found
on www.54321-go.com. Price £129 developed for road and navigation rallying.
Details of Forest Enterprise allocations for
Application for membership received from Newtown
& District AC, proposed by the Championship Secretary, seconded by Tim Hobbs
of Telford AC. NADAC is a well-known club of long-standing and run
excellent events that would be welcomed in our Championships.
Press Release from Hagley & DLCC thanked members
and guests to the Loton Park Motor Sport Festival for their generosity in
raising £2,750 towards charities.
E-mail from Adam Orr-Ewing of Leopard Films
asking for teams to tackle the Supa Car Races, whereby teams would have
limited time to buy, modify and race the car of their choice. Filming had
already taken place by the time of the meeting, although publicity had been
published on our website.
118 Car Club had written to say that they were no
longer a Limited Company.
Nothing to report other than minuted
The Treasurer was not present due to F1
time-keeping duties, but it is understood that the accounts are healthy. 50
clubs had paid their annual subscriptions and the draw was made for three
clubs to have their fees refunded. It took nine draws to find the
successful three, these being Harlech & DMC, Mid-Derbyshire MC and Stockport
The following member clubs had not yet paid
their subscriptions for 2003 - Austin-Healey Club (Northern); Blackrod MC;
British Rally Marshals Club; Chester MC; Clitheroe & DMC; Clwb Modur Cymru;
Dovey Valley MC; Glossop & DCC; Hagley & DLCC; Huddersfield MC; Imp Club;
Keighley & DMC; Kidderminster MCC; Knutsford & DMC; Lancashire AC; Lightning
MSC; Mini Cooper Register; Newtown & DAC; Port Talbot MC; Reliant Sabre &
Scimitar OC; Severn Valley MC; 60 & Worcestershire MC; Sporting Escort OC;
Three Shires MC; Triumph Sporting OC; 2300 Club; Vauxhall MG (Wirral);
Warrington & DMC; Welsh Border CC; Westfield Sports CC; Whitchurch MC;
Wigton MC; Wolverhampton & South Staffs CC.
(Note that since the meeting many of the
above have now paid, the list of outstanding fees as at 11th October
comprises Austin-Healey Club (Northern); Hagley & DLCC; Imp Club; Keighley &
DMC; Lancashire AC; Lightning MSC; Port Talbot MC; Severn Valley MC; Three
Shires MC; Triumph Sporting OC; 2300 Club; Warrington & DMC; Westfield
Sports CC - total 13 clubs)
DVT reported that there were 347 competitors
registered, with 71 events having been run to date. Event registrations for
2003 were being received and a provisional listing was distributed at the
meeting. Everything is now published on the website www.anwcc.org which was
being updated almost daily. The site had amassed almost 4,000 hits since
February, far greater than the number anticipated. Many favourable comments
had been received, with the rare complaint being dealt with quickly.
Morecambe CC had cancelled their Morecambe
Road Rally due to discussions on www.rallyforum.com becoming personal. The
organisers had banned 4x4 Turbo cars, although would allow them for ANWCC
Suggestions are being received for changes to
the Championship structure and regulations and these would be considered
before finalising the series for 2003.
Teams were being sought for the
Inter-Association PCT, Off-Road and Road Rally events. We had submitted
teams to the Inter-Association Autotest, the "A" team finishing third
overall. We had also had two teams on the Stage Rally Challenge, but
neither had a full set of finishers - West Midlands winning for the third
The Lancashire & Cheshire Rover OC were keen
to start an Off-Road Championship and DVT offered to run the series.
Details of the proposals were to be submitted.
FORESTRY LIAISON OFFICER
There has been a change to the structure of
Forest Enterprise in North Wales, with rallies now being handled by Rob Watt
at the Dolgellau Office. Martin Pratt said he was available to help if
AINTREE LIAISON OFFICER
Mike Ashcroft reported on a meeting held on
7th July, with Charles Barnett of Aintree Racecourse, Mike Fitzjohn from
Sport England, John Haden and Phil Gough of Liverpool MC, and
representatives of the ACU. Dates were confirmed for 2003, although the
fees were not. If the costs are increased there could be problems. Work
had been carried out by two contractors, with the cost being borne one-third
each by the circuit, the car club and the motor-cycle club. Two events had
been held without any problems, except for the facilities (toilets, heating,
untidiness) not being satisfactory. The Golf Course is being extended to 18
holes, and will include the other side of the circuit, subject to drainage.
The Sports Council had paid a grant of £50k twelve years ago, and there was
disagreement over maintenance costs against a total hire fee of £250k. The
major development project was awaiting NW Development Agency strategy and
feasibility study, reference environmental impact and emissions. Entry
levels for the Sprint meetings had been good.
OTHER VENUE LIAISON
Weeton - Clitheroe & DMC would be running the
next event on 27th October with assistance from Stockport MC. This event
replaces the postponed September date.
Caernarfon - problems with the venue were
unresolved to date. The landowner is keen for motor sport to use the venue
and the wish would be resurrected when current problems (nothing to do with
the sport) are overcome.
Anyone wishing assistance with the Press may
contact Katy Mashiter for advice.
Mike Farnworth had submitted notes by
e-mail. Clubs reminded to circulate Training Day information. MSA Videos
will be available from September. Fire Training is planned for Oulton Park
on 15th February 2003, as yet unconfirmed. The MSA supports Training Days,
and are inviting bids for 2003 - anyone interested in organising club nights
should contact Mike Farnworth. There will be a Rally Training Day at
Myerscough College, Preston in 2003 where the facilities are said to be
excellent, volunteering forms available.
RALLY LIAISON OFFICER
Martin Pratt stated that he was not aware of
any problems in his patch. More people are now getting in touch with him,
with more contact coming from non-affiliated clubs.
Jack Romain was calling a meeting of North
Wales based clubs, to discuss the running of night events with
representatives of North Wales Police. Meeting scheduled for 29th August.
Clive Baty questioned the public perception
of cars, reference lights and speed. Jim Jones stated that his club (C&A)
runs closed-to-club road rallies at a low profile, with no spectators, and
these are very successful with no problems.
ANY OTHER BUSINESS
John Francis reminded the meeting that a
Charity Track Day will be organised by the Dayz of Funder MC at Three
Sisters on 16th August, and all assistance and support would be appreciated.
Clive Baty asked about the Junior Trials Formula.
A Pilot Day had been held in the Bristol area, and there will be an update
in the next edition of Motorsports Now! Contact at the MSA for further
details is Ian Davis.
Suggestions for a workable Marshals Championship
would be welcomed.
The Association had nominated Alan Bibby and Neil
Bye for posts on the 2003 MSA Rallies Specialist Committee.
It was proposed by DVT that minutes of the
meetings no longer be sent by post to those club representatives that have
supplied an e-mail address. The minutes are now displayed on the website,
and an e-mail would be sent to those relevant people informing them that the
latest minutes had been added. The representative could then download from
the website, or alternatively request a copy be e-mailed (MS-Word 2002).
The same system could be used for ANWCC NeWs as all the information was now
available on the web. The competitor registration forms for 2003 would
include a tick box to be ticked if competitors wanted a printed copy sent by
post. It was anticipated that publishing information in this way would
reduce print and postage costs sufficiently to cover the increased cost of
awards and general administration, and so subscription fees could remain at
the current low levels.
DATE AND PLACE OF NEXT MEETING
The meeting closed at 2300 hours, members
thanked for attending. The next meeting will be held on Tuesday 12th
November 2002 at the Holiday Inn, Runcorn, commencing at 2000 hours.
The next meeting of the Association of
North-Western Car Clubs will be held in the Holiday Inn, Runcorn on Tuesday
13th August 2002.
... for the Ordinary Meeting of the
Association of North-Western Car Clubs, which will be held at Holiday Inn
Runcorn, on Tuesday 12th November, commencing at 2000 hours.
Apologies for absence
Minutes of the last Ordinary Meeting
Any other business
Forestry / Facilities Liaison Officer
Aintree Liaison Officer
Other Venue Liaison
Date and place of next meeting
p.p. Kay Skellern
General Secretary - Association of North-Western Car Clubs
17 Johnson Close, Henshall Hall, Congleton, Cheshire, CW12 3TQ
IMPORTANT LATE ITEM
Phoenix Rescue ... Peter Lawton has recently changed employer, which
unfortunately means that his free time is now rather restricted. We have
therefore had a reorganisation in the administration of our bookings. For
the 2003 season Mike Farnworth will now handle all bookings, and he can be
contacted on any of the following ... Telephone: 01625 611 314 or 07765 233
780, or e-mail: firstname.lastname@example.org or email@example.com ... Please
book early to avoid disappointment. Phoenix Rescue look forward to being of
service to you in the near future.